Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: What if the key to unlocking your team's potential is learning to listen better? Invite opposition, and let go of always having the answers. In this episode, Marcia Aker, an expert facilitator and team coach, reveals five powerful ways to inspire meaningful collaboration within your team. So tune in to learn how to create a culture where every voice is heard and decisions drive success.
Marcia, great to have you on the Cultural Leadership podcast.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. It's good to be here.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: It's absolute pleasure. Marcia, if you want to give our viewers, our community, a bit of background on who you are, what you're about, and what's brought you to coming to us today.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. Well, so today, current Space, I am a leadership and team coach, so I have a practice that's really about. I care a lot about how we communicate and collaborate and talk with one another.
That is my very clear focus. I guess the story about how I got here, though, is I often say I went to school and I have a background in software engineering, which many years ago took me into the teaming space and team development space.
I got turned on very early to the practice, the art of facilitation. And I found myself for many years trying to bridge the gap between a development team and a set of end users who were trying to articulate what they wanted and developers who were trying to implement it and make it happen. And so that was really my first introduction to facilitation techniques and group process.
Several years after that, I started, I was working in a small consulting firm. This was probably about three different companies later from where I learned to facilitate. But I ended up leading a leadership team through a large organizational transformation. And we had gone through months of helping them map out process, and it was all about sort of process improvement. And as they got ready to make sort of that final decision about where they were going to make cuts, and everything in the organization was changing, the leadership team just sort of came to a grinding halt. And I noticed and watched them struggle with some of those key decisions that they needed to make. And I'd spent so much time helping them talk about the process, right? The task, the metrics, the data, the people.
And nowhere in there had we carved out time for them to have a deeper conversation about what did it mean for them, how were they going to lead their people through that process? And so we'd really left out kind of that human component to it. And we'd left out, I think, some of the deeper conversations.
That event became what I can look back now and tell you is that it just became a pretty pivotal moment for me.
Two years after that, I launched Team Catapult. So that was early 2000s. I launched Team Catapult in 2005, which is my coaching company. And I went down the path of learning to be a professional coach and focusing on team coaching.
I tell that story because I think it's a lot about how I got to where I'm at in terms of caring deeply about how we meet and talk with one another. And I watched it play out at such a large and impactful way with that leadership team in that change that they were leading. So that's a shortened story.
I could say a whole lot more, but that's a shortened story about how I got here today.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: I have to say, again, a little bit of sort of background that I do on all of our guests and stuff like that. It did seem that we had quite a lot of similarities as far as the journey goes, and you just reinforced that. So I was fortunate enough to be thrown in the deep end as far as facilitation at quite a young age and journey in the corporate space and dealing with a lot of senior leaders. And I was like, what the hell am I doing here? But geez, I learned a lot and it worked out really well for me. And then one point in time, I did lead a global system implementation. And that, I wouldn't say that was the catalyst, but it certainly emphasized hugely the impact that people have on any sort of change and anything that you're doing. And again, the system may work this way and the process may be this or whatever, but if you've got sort of the people not rallying behind stuff and sorting through their own stuff through the process, then it's pretty damn difficult, isn't it?
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I love how you talk about that people process and technology, you know, space. Because I feel like early on I had the tech piece, I thought, you know, all we need is the technology and we can make improvements. And then, oh, right, we need the process, you know, to hook the tech together. And it, you know, that leadership team and working with them was my. It was my moment of just stark realization. We were at a. We were at a retreat and I had left the room and we were trying to figure out what we were going to do and what. How it was going to facilitate. And it was just sort of at the end of my rope. I didn't know what else to do. And I ended up going back in the room and saying. And just sort of saying, like, I feel like you're stuck. And I'm wondering, you know, at that moment in time I'm like, there's no more process here. Like it's not a process. So.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: What were the signs or just some of the signs you saw that sort of gave you that hey, I feel like you're stuck moment.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Repetitive conversations.
You know, I think that we got to this place where the data was all there.
I mean if they were going to make a decision by math and data and you know how to create efficiencies, they didn't really need any more data. They had it all. But all of a sudden we were spending days sort of spinning on the same topic and they couldn't get alignment.
I could describe it as a feeling that I had in the room. I felt resistance but nobody was really explicitly saying what they were resisting. I felt like we kept circling back on topics they'd already decided. And I kept thinking what is you decided this? Why are we back. Why are we back talking about that? So you know, the process task level facilitator comes out and you sort of want to hold up the you already decided this, let's move on.
And there was just a general, like I said to them, I feel like I'm pulling you through.
That actually became one of. It is still today one of my key indicators, like if I feel like I want something more than a group or if I feel like I'm working harder than they are, that's a really good indicator to me that there's maybe a conversation that they need to have that they're not having.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: In the hybrid working world, I've seen too many business owners and their businesses suffer because of poor performing employees leading to below average results. If you want to improve your employees performance to deliver consistent results for your business, you have to master one on one meetings. The doors to our master one on one meetings training program are opening soon. I'll teach you how to improve employee performance and deliver consistent results using one on one meetings. To be one of the first people notified when the doors open. Go to leaderbydesign AU waitlist. Don't wait. Sign up now with that point you make. That's quite a self aware type point. And again, I haven't known you very long but way back then before you sort of really immersed yourself in the whole leadership space and self awareness and all those sorts of things. A lot of that comes through the workbook you've done. What was it in your sort of background that even got you to that point? Because I could pretty confidently Say, and I think you'd agree that there's a lot of people that wouldn't have been at that self awareness space.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Well, I think that's a really good call out, Brendan, because the way I can describe it to you today is not how I would have described it back then. I'm sure in that moment I think it was just a pure frustration around.
I feel like I had a bag of tricks in terms of facilitation. I knew the process and the techniques of facilitation fairly well and nothing was working. And we did, you know, we kept having the same conversation. And what I was able to walk back into the room and say to them after a fairly long break that we'd had is I just said, like, I don't, I'm really curious, like, I don't know what's going on, but you've done all of the things that you need to do, so what's really holding you back? And at that time, what ended up happening was the, the positional leader of that leadership team ended up making the decision, needing to take the decision away from it being a whole leadership team level decision, and she ended up being the one to make the decision.
I would maybe do things a little bit differently now, the today version of me versus that version, but what I knew at that point was it wasn't working. It wasn't a facilitation thing.
The leadership team was really missing an opportunity to talk about. There were deeper things for them to talk about in order for them to find alignment around it.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: Yeah, for us, I mean, again, I think there's two people on this podcast that really love people, but geez, they're a pain in the ass sometimes to get stuff done, aren't they?
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah. I have a colleague that says it'd be great if we didn't. I could get everything done that I needed to get done if I didn't have people. That's maybe a little bit of a tongue in cheek comment.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: It is, but we do have to be very careful saying those sort of tongue in cheek comments now with all the technology that's around and coming, for sure, no people are always needed. It doesn't matter what it is. But there's all these great technologies that can certainly support and aid us moving forward. But yeah, I'm with you as well. I think we probably have various frustrations in different countries where it's just like sometimes it's just so obvious in the logic and the process behind that. But it's the people that makes every situation so unique, isn't it?
[00:11:00] Speaker B: For sure.
[00:11:01] Speaker A: Let's go into our sort of key topic, Marcia, because we're talking sort of off air before that. And you agreed that this is a real challenging thing for business owners, business leaders, anybody leading a team really, in my experience that encouraging that more collaborative type team conversations in your organizations to get great outcomes. And so one of these, you've identified five ways apparently to encourage more collaborative team conversations. So let's unpack that. What's one of these ways and we can talk about as we go through.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Sure. Well, I think there's one piece that there is this process of leaders feeling like they need to tell. And I shouldn't say they. I should put myself in that category as well. Like I, as much as I know and believe, I think there are times where we really get caught in the trap of believing we just need to tell people rather than take the time to dive in and ask questions or be curious about it. So I think that's one of the challenges that leaders face in terms of collaboration.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: So as we go through, let's unpack each one as we go through and then we can sort of summarise them at the end. But so that tell.
I believe there's always there's a time to tell and there's a time to collaborate, let's say, and seek input. So what would you say about that? When would be a time to tell versus maybe a time where we should be looking at more the collaborative type approach?
[00:12:27] Speaker B: I think it depends on the context and the problem. And this is another. This might tie in to what I think is another piece about how to define more collaboration. But I think the first part to any of that is kind of framing the issue or the problem or the dilemma. So yes, I think there are some easy decisions that you could just simply tell people. It's a fairly straightforward.
Doesn't seem to. I think you have to look at the degree of support and buy in that you need for people to have the degree of different thinking that might exist around the topic. So those things for me would start to inform whether you're going to tell someone or whether you're going to look to engage in a more dialogue. But I think there are topics and every leader has this across their desk where they're more complex, they don't have easy answers.
I think of them more as dilemmas or there might be things that present themselves and you've got varying viewpoints inside the organization about how to go about achieving something. So I think any of These things where you need other people to buy into it or the topic itself is.
It's really sticky, you know, it doesn't have anything that seems really straightforward or clear about it. So I think being able to frame, like, what's the issue? What's the topic? And yes, you know, are there some things where sometimes it's a sense of urgency. It's, you know, there are outside factors that are happening. You don't have the luxury of inviting, you know, a lot of conversation around something. You get handed something and it needs, you know, a very quick, easy decision. Maybe not easy, but it needs a very quick decision. So I think there's that piece. But then I think there's bigger dilemmas that we face.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: As a leader or business owner. Do you think that we can be too collaborative sometimes? Is there a line where it's too much?
[00:14:30] Speaker B: I think it depends on each of us. So I have.
There's sort of three ways in which we all orient to other people, sort of the norms that we use to and as we work with others. One is open system, which is looking to hear all voices. Another is closed system, meaning there's a clear order and process for how things are going to get done. And I orient to people with more clear closure and process. And a third operating system, which is random, and that's more innovative and creative. So if I'm a leader, and I am a leader who operates, maybe not surprisingly, given the topic we're talking about today, but I have a tendency to operate more in open system. It is just sort of my default go to. I think there are other leaders I observe that have a tendency to go more quickly to closed. And it matters in this context where we're talking about, do you ask or do you tell? Because I think it will be oriented to our particular preference about how we.
How we view that role of leadership. So I have to watch for that very thing. I can overdo or overuse my tendency to want to ask people for input. Just flat out, I can. So I have to watch that. I have to regulate it. And there I have to be really intentional about checking in with myself. Like, is this something that I need people to buy into and I need their support and I need their fingerprints on it, or is this just going to be the decision and I'm going to make it and I'll do it more in closed system than I will in open system? So I think it depends on each of us.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: I think it's. Again, it's super interesting. The thing that I find and it's happened sort of sometimes with my clients over the years and, you know, which I really get them to avoid is that they sort of want to be, they want to be collaborative, but then actually they've already got a decision in their head. Oh yeah, they're already, can you say close minded about that? So I don't know, you tell me what. For me, I feel like one of the worst things you can be is trying to be collaborative. But you've got the thing in your head and it's almost like you're being collaborative but you're telling people through that collaborative process. So you're getting to that outcome that you want to get to. That's got to be destructive in team environments, doesn't it?
[00:17:00] Speaker B: It is.
I call this collaboration theater.
It's when you walk into a room and you already know the decision that you want to make and you come in trying to persuade, convince or cajole others into your thinking.
Don't do that.
I think it's something, I think when you invite people into a process and you're going to ask them questions and you're going to ask for what they think, I think you have to be really, truly honest with yourself and checking in with, do I want to hear what people have to say? Am I open, Do I have an open mind to being to change my thinking about this particular topic? Or is my thinking it is what it is for right now, given the data that I have? And then I think the ability to open up a conversation with a team and be really transparent about that can actually be really rewarding and freeing. So you could tee up a conversation and say, look, I want to hear your thoughts, but I am going to make a decision at the end of our conversation today. And by the way, I'm leaning towards this, but I do want to hear what you have to say. So that's one way to bring a bit of closed with open. So those two ways of orienting to others. I could also say, I could walk into a space and say, look, here's the decision and this is what I've decided. We're going to go forward with this.
I get, you know, people might have different points of view and where I want to hear your, you know, where I want to have your input is not on this decision, but I want to get your input on how we're going to do it. So again, we're starting to dissect distinctions about the topic that we're talking about. So where are we at with the decision? What do we want input on? And I think to your point, like, I just. I love it when leaders own their thinking around that.
I think it doesn't do any of us any good when we're not transparent about it, because everybody in that room will know that they are being railroaded into some kind of thinking. And then that's when everybody stops contributing.
People go silent, and then people come up with all of the things that they hate about meetings with people don't speak, and they want to know why no one's contributing. And they want to know why everybody just said yes and they really meant something else. And I'm like, well, there's probably good reason for that, right?
[00:19:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. I'm so glad you've unpacked that so well, actually, because it is such an important point.
Does collaboration in a team mean agreement or equal agreement?
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Tell me more. Yeah, I do think you have to define.
So actually, I was with a group earlier this week and this kept coming up because I think I make up a story that this particular team has some experiences with being asked to come to consensus on things and that it takes a long time.
So I think that when we collaborate or. So for me, my definition of inviting people into collaboration means that I want to hear people's voice in a process. I want to hear what people think. I personally want to hear what people really think, not what they think I want them to say, but I really want to invite the true, authentic thought and that, you know, we can unpack that in a minute. But that's what I mean by collaboration. And then for me, consensus would mean that everybody can live with and support the decision at the end. But I love for groups to make the clear distinction about agreement, because really, for me, when I collaborate or when I invite people into a conversation, I am never looking for, never would be, very rarely, if ever, am I looking for agreement. I am looking for, do you.
Do you see how we got to the decision? Do you feel like you had a voice in it? Do you feel like your point of view was heard, not maybe followed, or we didn't totally adopt it, but do you feel like it was heard? Do you feel like your fingerprints are on the final decision in some way? And can you live with and support it? So being able to say, I live with and support that decision is so entirely different than I agree with it.
So I love the question about that. But for me, collaboration just means we're coming together to talk about it. And I want to hear your voice.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: The bit to unpack a little Bit is, and again, we know that there's a number of things that you can do leading into this. Psychological safety and safe spaces, all those sorts of things. But let's say a business owner is in a room and they've turned the switch to I need to be more collaborative on this approach. What could a leader do? Or what should a leader do in a that moment to make sure that they're giving their people the best chance of giving them unfiltered input, that genuine thinking about where they're at?
[00:22:35] Speaker B: I think it's incumbent upon us, particularly if you have any kind of positional power in the room, to be the one asking the risky questions. So I think it's helpful if we're able to say here's.
You could start out with here's my thinking. But it's probably even better to just tee up, here's the topic, or here's what I see as our challenge. What do the rest of you see? Or where are we at risk? Or what might we be missing? And my most favorite question, and I think it comes with like a warning because I don't want anybody to ask it if they don't really mean it. It's sort of like asking for input and not really wanting it. But where might I be wrong?
I think those kinds of questions invite. Now if you don't really want to hear where you might be wrong, then don't ask.
Because I think that to your question about. You mentioned psychological safety earlier. I think there are lots of ways we undermine psychological safety. Even if we're so well intentioned and we think we're open, we think we're collaborative.
But if I ask that question as a leader and I say where might I be wrong?
And I don't really want to hear it, or I don't like what I hear, there can be any smallest facial expression or visual sort of shoulder shrug or eye roll or slight eye roll that I might give that as soon as I do that, it signals to the person that's just said that I might have just stepped in something.
So I think you have to really check in with yourself if you really want to hear that. But I think those kinds of questions, I think we have to be the ones to prompt. And I think those kinds of questions really start to open the door to hear authentic reasoning. What do people really think?
[00:24:39] Speaker A: I think that word that resonates with me, you mentioned a bit earlier that curiosity to be curious about what the person's input is around that and have that open mind around it, I just had this weird flash about on zoom meetings, the amount of meetings that we have nowadays online, that I ask this question about where I might be wrong and then I just put you on mute while you tell me.
Don't ask me why that came into my head, but I have some silly thoughts from time to time.
That's probably not something you'd condone, is it, Marcia?
[00:25:11] Speaker B: No, but I absolutely condone the impulse. Right. Like it's. I think I just want to normalize that. I'm very well aware of what I'm saying.
It's really easy to say and hard to do.
I think it's. Intellectually, anybody listening to this podcast would be going, sure, that sounds like a, you know, that makes a lot of sense. I can see how that would be really helpful. I think I'll try it tomorrow. And then you get there and it happens to be a topic that you really care about.
You maybe like, where the decision is starting to land, and then you ask this question or you think you want to try it. So I just, I want to normalize, but I think it's. I think it's risky.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that vulnerability is the common term, isn't it? And then there can be psychological things in people's past that really impacts the level of vulnerability. So there's so much sort of, again, back to that self awareness involved in those, you know, how people operate, how they act. There's. There's always a meaning to that. And trying to be curious about understanding that you may not. Again, I'm no psychologist or any of that, but just, it just fascinates me, the behaviors, even a lengthy conversation I had with one of my clients this morning around some behavioral of one of his leaders, and you just, like, you know, you know, there's so much more than that, and you're not trained around that specifically, but you can see it. You've learned enough about that before. It's amazing.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's. Can I just say, when those things hit you.
You mentioned this earlier, but I think it's really about being curious. Like, how can you be even if you don't, you know, you don't need to necessarily know all the psychological pieces about what might be behind it. I think it just, it becomes one of those flags that just makes you curious. And you can ask a question like, hey, what's happening? Or what's that about? Or what are you thinking?
[00:27:11] Speaker A: So that we'll move on to the second point and others. But in summary, is it fair to say That I think that. See the openness and the genuine tent about being collaborative and using questions potentially to drive some of that, not putting your thoughts and then asking and rather than just get, oh, yeah, we agree is important. But I think the one thing that I want to stress as well and from leaders and the conversations I have is that being collaborative, again, we said it's not about just not making a decision and trying to get agreement from everyone, because that doesn't often happen when you've got a couple of 2, 3, 4. The more people you got in the room, the less chance you got a full agreement. But there is still the leader needing to, in my view, tell at the end of the day, you're seeking input and stuff, but somebody's still got to make that decision at the end of the day. So it's not about not making a decision, but it's about getting some input, getting some different perspectives, people seeing things through different lenses. But then a decision has to be made. And generally the leader, if they're asking the question, they're probably in that position where they're getting paid the big bucks to make that decision. Is that fair to say for sure?
[00:28:16] Speaker B: There was a leadership team that I worked with about a year ago, and that was their pattern. So they operated much more in that open system. So they were very quick to send topics around the room wanting to hear input. And then their challenge was closing it down and making that final decision. And so we worked together on. They would have a conversation and then somebody would make a move to start to close it down, and then someone else would just eek out. But what about, you know. And so I started, you know, helping them develop sort of signals around, you know, timeout. Hold on. Like, you just decided that what makes you want to go back and do that again? So even just becoming aware of those small behaviors where we, you, you know, when you asked earlier about when to tell and when to open it up or when to open it up and then close it down and move on.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think that's a. It's a great point. And as a, you know, part of the work we do as a facilitator is that it's one of those sort of really.
I'm not even sure how you train this skill, but through the experience over time and seeing this, it's a really fine balance of knowing when you actually do need to continue to unpack the conversation to get a bit more commitment to something versus letting it go on. And not reaching a commitment isn't It. Do you find that there's a fine balance in that?
[00:29:46] Speaker B: I think I do. And I think sometimes it comes by just, you know, for me, I think there's a little bit of a gut sense in that where I'm wanting a team to listen for. Have we hit the major points, like, have we heard some pushback, have we heard some new thinking and new ideas? And when it feels like it's fairly complete and there isn't a whole lot more to say on it, I just, I think there is that. Time to go. Okay, now's the time if you need to come back to it at some point later.
But for leaders who are so oriented to that collaborative space, that can be the hard work for them.
So I think it's just, it's listening for the quality of the conversation that you've had around it and then going, yeah, I think that needs to work for now.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: Great point. So that first one about things that don't encourage collaborative conversation is telling people. What's the second one?
[00:30:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I think connected probably pretty closely to telling is pulling out a PowerPoint.
So this idea, I love PowerPoints.
I had a leader once who would kind of tee up a conversation and then start, go right to putting all of their thoughts right into a PowerPoint so that it was ready to present. So it's really kind of, you know, tightly connected to that idea of telling versus asking. But I just, I think there's an aspect of PowerPoint that just doesn't serve any of that. So I started to challenge them to, you know, I just drop the PowerPoint, like, what would it look like to walk in and ask? And so there's a. There's a. Another piece to this, which is I find that one of the biggest challenges for leaders is this belief that when a question, when there's a problem or a question that arises, that they feel like they have to have the answer.
And if they don't have the answer, then they are somehow not fulfilling their role or they are not being leaderful.
And so I think that being able to suspend the need to have an answer is the work to do.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: What is it that.
I mean, again, it's the million dollar question. But there's so much in that piece of, for some reason, when people take on again, they're either a business owner or they're in a position of leadership, team leadership, supervisors, that it's almost like an automatic switch, like, I need to have all the answers. Now, I don't remember any leadership position I went into as a young Person that, you know, somebody said to me, you need to make all the decisions now. But you just, it just, what is it? It's weird.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: I don't. I hear you. I think my hypothesis is I might be totally wrong. So somebody might write into your show and be like, that's wrong. But my hypothesis is that for so long, from at least here in the US from the very first time we enter school, all the way up through our career, I think in many ways we get rewarded for having the right answer. In school, your job is to have the right answer. You get good grades, you move up to the next level of school. In work, you get it right or you do well and you get promoted and you get another promotion. And in some roles that we're playing, where there's a technical component to it or there are things that we need to get right, but when we reach the level of working with other humans, managing, leading, I think we leave the space of, I think there are very few right answers, meaning A, B, C or D. Please pick the one that is right. And I think that's a space of a lot more gray.
I don't think there are always clear cut, distinct black and white answers. And so we've been trained for so long, do it right, get it right, be rewarded, move up. And now you enter a space where your job is to sort of create containers for people and pay attention to how people and how we are talking together and are we having the conversations that we need to have and are we engaging with one another? And to do that, I have to start suspending the idea that I have all the answers. And now I have to start being curious and be candid when I don't know the answer so that I can invite others to join me in this process. And so that's. My hypothesis is that I think we've been well trained to have the answers. And so this idea of suspending having an answer and asking other people what they think is just, it's a, it's a mind, it's a mind bend.
[00:35:26] Speaker A: I do love that hypothesis. Again, my mind goes to, you know, so much in traditional schools, you know, whether that's Australia, US or whatever, but there's, there's so much independent learning, independent decision making, so independent achievement. And you know, there's our schools around there that been talking about collaborative learning and project learning and stuff like that for a long time. But it is, it is inbred, isn't it? It's just like that's the, you're on this Sort of path and you make those decisions and then why would you do any different when you, when you go further.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: That's right.
I think it's just a, I think it's a muscle we have to build. It's why I have a lot of, I have a lot of empathy for. Again, it's another one of those things that it gets tossed about a lot is ask questions or you know, suspend that you have all the right answers. It's hard. It can be, you know, it can take.
I think it's a practice, I think it's a skill to build.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: I just wonder then if you hear so many great stories of where high achieving sports people, team and individual sports, but when you still got coaches and groups helping you and things like that. But they seem to make, this is a big generalization. But they seem to make good transitions into business and business leadership. Maybe it is that sort of collaborative type environment they've been involved in and questioning and whatever. No one person makes a decision in those sort of environments.
Maybe another angle of the hypothesis.
[00:36:51] Speaker B: Well, and they're very, you know, often they're very team oriented. So there isn't sort of the one hero, you know, the myth of the hero leader, which I think is interesting in sports. Like that's not what works on high performing teams.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: Now I have to ask very serious question in relation to PowerPoint for all these very, very logical people out there that listen and watch out to our a keynote or a Google Slide? No difference.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: No difference.
[00:37:21] Speaker A: Okay. All right, all right. You can't get away with that. We don't want to give anybody an out. Marcia, that's true. But on the Google Slide it's okay.
I think the moral of the story is that having something pre prepared like that shows a level of intent that you've put a lot of thought into potential water decision making and it sort of undermines the whole questioning and curiosity aspect. Is that fair to say?
[00:37:44] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I mean when somebody walks into the room and they've got their thinking outlined.
Yeah. I would just sit back and be like great, let me know how I can help.
[00:37:59] Speaker A: Maybe walk in with a sort of Nico and butcher paper and an easel or something like that, then let's get some stuff written down and start to work through things I facilitate.
[00:38:08] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: Love it. Love it. What's the third thing that ways to encourage more collaborative team conversations?
[00:38:15] Speaker B: Mm. I'm a big fan. So there's, there's lots of overlap to these things. But I'm a really big Fan of.
[00:38:25] Speaker A: Sorry, before you go into that, I think that's a really important point. None of these things ever work in isolation, right? It's. It's like an ecosystem that comes together.
[00:38:32] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I'm a big fan of holding listening sessions.
And I think it's, you know, if I'm kind of hardwired to have all the answers, I'm a positional leader, and someone brings a problem to me and I want to dive in and start trying to fix it. So I watch this in many organizations I know do employee satisfaction surveys and where you get data, where people, you know, even on agile teams, they sort of surface challenges that they're having and they sort of dump the problem in a leader's lap. And what happens is you watch leaders just immediately start to go to problem solving. Again, you brought me a problem. My job is to remove roadblocks and let me, you know, let me go to work on that. But what's really challenging about that is, is that what the information that you have at your level will be really different than the information that people have at other levels where the problem is being felt and experienced, likely in different ways. And so I'm just a really big fan of finding ways to hold listening sessions. And I love the idea of the process of a listening session because it in many ways frees the leader. It's a way to sort of build this muscle of doing more listening and less talking. And so it's a flip to a leader needing to come in and present.
Literally a leader being invited to even sit in the back of the room or if you're meeting online, to sit and be present. It's not a lurking thing, but it is really. Can you just listen to a group of people have a conversation about the problem that they're experiencing?
So there was a leadership team that I was working with who had gotten a bunch of survey results. They weren't super great. And so they started to go around to different parts of the organization, and they asked for one of the team members to sort of do some of that facilitation. And the leaders that allowed them to just sit back and take notes and listen. And so the facilitator was sort of prompting a group of people, you can think about it as. It's not quite like a focus group, but it is a group of people who are having the conversation about what's it like on the ground, what are the challenges. And so the facilitator can ask sort of these in depth, kind of prompting questions and you get just a different flair and a different understanding of what's going on.
So there are lots of different ways to do that. But I think the point of it is, is that it is true deepened listening and the leaders aren't there to solve, they're there simply to listen. And so what happens over after leaders have been able to have multiples of those, it's just a different context. There are different ideas that emerge from that. And even in those sessions, people get an opportunity to make moves about what they might like to see. So I'm just a really big fan of finding ways to create listening sessions.
[00:41:46] Speaker A: If there is again, a business owner leader listening to this and they think, oh, I really like that sort of concept, what would you say to them? To how would they, how would they start that or how would they implement that? And particularly if it's, you know, this is something that they've never done before. And, you know, you can imagine the leaders going, oh geez, what podcast have they listened to later?
You know, like, you know, what's going on here? They're all a bit cautious and this is weird and whatever. What would you suggest?
[00:42:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it would be great to have somebody else in the organization who is, who can be a neutral party to that conversation. And you need to be really clear with the people that you're inviting into the process that there are boundaries like you're not going to, you know, this isn't going to be held against you and you have to really be prepared to, you know, to live up to that. But I think the other part would be for the leader to just give some context about what they're wanting to get out of the listening session, what prompted them to want to hold it. So, you know, in this particular example of this leadership team, they had done, you know, the employee survey feedback and their tee up in context to it was, we heard you. We understand that there's some real difficult things that are happening in the organization. We are committed to doing better and we don't want to be solving it without your input. And so we want to understand more about what's going on. So we'd really like to have the listening sessions. They brought in somebody else to facilitate. And so there's some context and some container. And the leadership team actually did more feedback sessions where they just updated people on what they heard so they would parrot back or rephrase back what they heard people say. And then they gave updates along the way over the course of the next several months about things that they were doing and tweaks that they were making to help address it. So the notion of that feeding back to people helps people feel heard and understood. And I think the biggest piece about change is people do not change until they feel heard and understood. And so, so much of what I think leaders job is is finding different ways and different structures for people to have that experience to feel like. Again, this isn't delegating decision making to everybody in the organization, but it is inviting people's voice into that process. So I think you need some kind of neutral facilitator in that process. I think you need a bit of context and why you're doing it and sort of what are you going to do with the information that you gather. Like don't invite people in to just tell you what they think and then you go off and it goes off into a black hole that really nobody knows what happens to it.
[00:44:41] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe someone in your organization that has maybe a genius of discernment or something like that that really likes to unpack and ask those questions and listen. This one also, out of the three so far, this one also feels like one of the ones where as a leader and business owner implementing something like this, don't expect sort of the world to change overnight. Like it's. If people aren't used to this sort of thing, like be patient with the process. Do you want to talk to that a little bit?
[00:45:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that there's, it's a really good point that none of this is a one and done thing. You know, it's, you said it earlier, they're all connected.
I think there is a trusting the process. Like it has to, people have to see you do this and then they have to, you know, they have to see you listen, they have to see you reframe and rephrase what they said so that they feel heard and then they have to see you do something with that. And all along people are going to have various levels or degrees of trust in the process.
Some might be standing on the we'll see side, others might be fully in and thinking, yeah, I'm happy to participate and you know, I hope you include me in the next one. So I think you have to give people space to have, you know, varying levels of skepticism about what they're watching you do. But this is, it's a practice, it's not a. I'm going to do it this month and then next month I'm going to move on to something else. I think, I think you, if this is a direction that you want to go. I often talk about this being more dialogue and less monologue. And I think if dialogue is a way that you want to head in your leadership, then it's just. It's an ongoing practice. It's this plus other things. I think you move up, you include everything that you've been doing and you find new practices, but you keep on that trail of heading towards more dialogue inside the organization. And less monologue doesn't mean that you'll never stand up in front of a room and tell people what to do, but you're discerning the balance of it.
[00:47:02] Speaker A: It's one of those. Well, to me, it's one of those situations where behaviour repeated becomes culture. Right. So don't expect just once off again, once and done sort of thing. In order to really get people buying into this process, some will need to see it repeated a number of times. Other people will speak up generally to start with and see where it comes. But you, to be consistent around this stuff, as you say, it becomes a practice.
[00:47:24] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: Let's move on to our fourth thing. What's our fourth thing, Marsh, that you.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: Think helps inviting difference?
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Tell us more.
[00:47:36] Speaker B: I think that it's so important to invite opposition.
So there is a.
There's a model by David Cantor called the four player model. And he says that there are four actions. Everything that we say could be coded into one of four actions. We're either making a move. So you just made a move by suggesting we move on to the next topic. I followed. So follow is a second action, which means I'm getting behind and supporting it. The third one is a pose. So I'm offering a really clear, like, hey, no, hold on, Brendan, let's not go there yet. And then a bystand is the fourth action, and it offers a morally neutral comment on what's happening. So like a moment ago when I said, you know, I was giving an example of how a leader might tee up a listening session, they might bystand. They might make a bystand and say, hey, look, we heard you. We know things are not well. We want to play an active role in this. We want to invite this. So the bystand becomes something that adds context or bridges different ideas. So one of the things that I think is so important and often missing in conversations is that action of a pose.
So in organizations, not all organizations, but there are definitely some organizations where we're really good at setting direction. Teams will be really good at making moves. New topics all the time follow, you know, things they get behind Ideas and they support them and they happen. And people will bystand, they'll notice, you know, I'm noticing, you know, the coffee pot's empty today, or I'm noticing we don't meet as often as we should, or I'm noticing that I'd really like to be asked what I think about certain things. And if you notice the way I just said that, I'm offering a bystand, but it's got kind of a, a little twinge behind it. And what's really behind that bystand is an unvoiced oppose.
And so when we mix these actions.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: Aggressive comment, isn't it?
[00:49:52] Speaker B: It is. We call it a covert oppose, meaning I'm offering it as a different action, but I'm really holding back what I really think. And I think that as leaders, if you want to know whether you've got psychological safety in your team and you're not quite sure whether you do or not, just listen in your conversations. Like take next week and sort of sit and listen to your conversations. And just maybe on the side of your paper mark, every time you hear someone clearly, not backhanded or underhanded, but clearly offer pushback in your conversation. And if you have the single digits by the time you get to the end of next week, it's probably a pretty good litmus test that there is space to invite more difference. And you know those questions that we were talking about earlier, like who sees it differently or what are we missing or where might I be wrong or what's at risk if we do this? I think being able to ask those questions is really what opens up that conversation. But we have to be willing to invite difference.
[00:51:10] Speaker A: I love that. Sorry, go on.
[00:51:12] Speaker B: It's risky.
[00:51:14] Speaker A: Again, that vulnerability side comes in again, doesn't it? But again, if you're not willing to. I call it stress test. If you're not willing to stress test sort of these things and get the different perspectives based on the experiences and all those things in the room, then you're missing something. You're almost getting to that point of group think, aren't you, if you don't do it?
I mean, you've gone through some questions and things like that, but what could.
How vulnerable does a, let's say a team member need to be able to do that? Like what helps them build courage around these sorts of things? So it's not just the leader's got to set the tone. I get that. But anybody in the room can do these things, right?
[00:51:55] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. And you really want everybody in the room to do them. I think a lot of times teams will have patterns where one person or one or two people will be really good. They'll be fluent in voicing a pose, and you might have the rest of your team who isn't as fluent. So what happens is this dynamic of, well, if I know that Bob's going to be the one to voice a pose, then I'll just hang back. I don't really like to voice it.
For me, a pose is one of the least used actions that I bring because I grew up in a house where I was taught that it was rude to do that. So for much of my childhood, I have a story that says, that's a rude way to interact with people. So as an adult, I've completely reframed that. But it still takes work for me to actively think, do I have a different point of view here, that I'm holding back or not voicing. And so I think as team members, we just have to be. We have to watch, like, are we letting someone else make the risky moves while we hang back? Because we're really tricky humans because we'll walk out of a meeting and then complain about that person later on, as they're always the naysayer. You know, we label it the naysayer or the devil's advocate, and then we get grumpy about the fact that they always do it. But if we look at the group dynamics of that, chances are they always do it because no one else is doing it. And it's missing in that whole group context. And without it, we run the risk of kind of running off the rails or we're missing, you know, in depth conversations. So I think that I really love to ask people, like, when they're complaining about someone who's doing something or bringing, you know, the voice of opposition, and they are. They're getting grumpy about it. I'm like, well, how about. Why don't you try stepping in and finding, like, you have to. This isn't a game. It's not about, you know, finding something to oppose, just to oppose, but it is about checking in with yourself and really finding, hey, where would I push back? Even if it were, you know, a small piece of this that I think we're missing or doing incorrectly, so it's a big topic, but this idea of being able to welcome difference and that it belongs to everybody.
[00:54:28] Speaker A: Absolutely. I also think, Marcia, that there's a big element and what I try and encourage teams to do, and particularly team members, in that you can Almost guarantee that if somebody has some pushback on something or a different perspective, everyone else may not have that exact same perspective, but they've got their own perspective on it. So if you have the courage to speak up, the level of respect you can have amongst your team straight away, but in particular from the leader, because the leader knows that that's not going to be the person that just nods and agrees when they generally say, you know what, you're spot on. I agree with you. There's more trust in that as opposed to people that just always say, yes, sir, three bags full, sir.
[00:55:16] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I love the idea of even. I often try to encourage teams, like even if you agree with what's being said, chances are the reason that you agree might be slightly different than others. So again, teams are really quick to thumbs up or plus one, what everybody's saying or I don't really need to say it because I disagree. I don't have any different opposition, but I really try to encourage teams. Again, it's the quality of the dialogue for me to say, Brendan. Yeah, I agree with you and here's the perspective that I. Here's what I love about that and, and I'm able to bring a unique point of view and it doesn't need to be long winded, but it starts to sort of paint a more rich tapestry in our conversation.
[00:56:04] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And of course, you and I knowing these things, we've never not spoken up in meetings, have we?
[00:56:10] Speaker B: No, never.
[00:56:13] Speaker A: I know you're lying as much as me.
We've all done it, we've all felt unsafe at different times or just not wanting to have that point for sure again, I mean, tongue in cheek a bit, that sort of comment. But I think the other thing, a point that I'd like to make on this is that if you don't speak up, like, don't beat yourself up, it's not the end of the world. Like, reflect on that. And again, I know this book, building your model for leading change, there's so much reflection in that and a number of things we're speaking about and you've mentioned today are in that book. It's an unbelievably powerful workbook and reflection process. But just reflect on why maybe you weren't feeling like you needed to speak up or to have that opposing view at the time and then work on that so that you're in a position next time to do that. Don't just think, oh, I haven't done it once, so I'll never do it.
[00:57:02] Speaker B: Again, I think that's a really good point. And I, you know, I'd even give everybody an out. Like, there are times, it just depends on the group that you're meeting with. So there are times where I might be meeting with a group that I'm. I'm maybe going to have two meetings with them. And that's definitely going to factor in to how much am I going to try to engage in a dialogue here versus just trying to get something done and move on. So there are absolutely times where that becomes part of my filter and my own decision making about how much risk I'm going to take and what's at stake.
[00:57:38] Speaker A: Yeah, love it. Just one different person in the room depending on the relationship of the people can make a big difference, can't it?
[00:57:46] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:57:48] Speaker A: Let's get to our fifth and final point in the five.
[00:57:52] Speaker B: Marcia, you have to carve out the time.
[00:57:56] Speaker A: Seems sensible.
[00:57:58] Speaker B: What's that?
I think that I am a huge fan of carving out space to actually engage in dialogue. So in day to day work, there's so many times that we need to meet and we need to meet about a particular topic. It's got a deadline, we don't have a long time. We've got 30 minutes to have the meeting and then we're off and running. And I think what happens over the span of our workspace is that a little bit of conversation and relationship debt starts to build up. And if we don't carve out as a team, so both at a leadership team level or work team level, or even cross team level, if we don't start to carve out space where we can actually slow down and engage in dialogue and build relationships, it just builds up over time. It becomes super big. It's all the stuff that you sort of sweep under the rug because you run out of time and you don't have time to talk about it. So even in my own company, we have a practice of meeting once a month for two to three hours. And it is an agenda. Less space, but it is a space where we come together to have dialogue and we use that time to reflect on how we're working together, how we're interacting and communicating with others, with each other, where we think, you know, where maybe I stepped on someone a week ago and this becomes the place where we can sort it out. And so it's become such a valuable practice for us.
When I'm working with leadership teams, I help them put something like that in place.
Very seldom do they stop, you know, after we get them started, they continue the practice on and on. And it becomes this container for having in depth conversations sometimes that the day to day meeting spaces just don't always tend to allow us. So I'm just a huge fan of carving out space and it's easier at the beginning of the year. So I know we're just kicking off this particular year. So it's great to be able to go into your calendar and collectively as a team just find that block of time and give it a try.
[01:00:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that sort of, that being deliberate about it and to change stuff, you've got to be deliberate. How would you, I mean, if a client is engaging with us and paying good money, then generally you've got that element of trust because, you know, transferring money is a high element of trust.
It's easier to tell or to convince that this is actually, even though you're putting the time up front, it's time saving activity for later on. But, but again, people listening to this that I guess maybe they've got some trust in me, they've just heard from you today and getting to know you.
How would you explain to them that hey, these things, spending some of that quality time up front around these things actually does save time into the future. What would you say to them?
[01:01:05] Speaker B: I read a study late last year, it was published by a company called Zipdo. And while I could have told you I felt like this was true, the fact that they were able to put metrics to it really resonated for me. So they had two metrics. One was 57% of projects failed due to ineffective communication.
57%.
And that ineffective communication cost global companies 359 billion in lost productivity.
I mean, it's like when you let those numbers sink in, I think it's huge.
And it's hard to, you know, you and I will have had the experience of, and the, you know, the honor quite frankly of watching team after team after team. And we've, we've got, we, you know, we sit in a seat where likely we can see things really differently than people can see them when they're in it. You know, when they're, when you're on the ground or in the trenches, it's a little bit harder to see it. But those metrics resonate for me because I watch teams and a lot of times teams are coming to us when it's become an issue. But there's so many places where we step over something or we step on somebody and then it leaves this residue that if we don't clean it up or figure it out or find a way to make it easier to communicate with one another. It just, it results in the spinning meetings or people paying for the consultant that comes in and helps facilitate this six month long business re engineering process where we're reorgang but we can't make the final decision. And so all of a sudden all that money is lost or we can't get a project completely off the ground because we've got two people working on the project who are absolutely stuck in advocacy and opposition with one another and they can't sort it out so the project doesn't move forward. So I think there's so many small places that really when it comes like if you peel it all back, it comes down to there's something about the structure and the way that we were communicating at that moment that somebody didn't feel heard or understood and somebody else misunderstood. And all of a sudden something that was so easy or simple that could have been resolved six months ago with a 30 minute conversation has now taken six people and however many meetings and so many other resources to resolve. And I just, I watched that. I don't know about you, but I have so many examples that I could give of places where I'm like, if we could just go back. So I know a lot of times focusing on communication and the way we collaborate seems like such a, I don't know, an unsexy thing or I think we think we know how to communicate because we do it every day. So why would I sort of put the extra effort in to collaborate with one another?
I think it just falls into this bucket of why bother?
And I wish we'd bother a little bit more.
[01:04:46] Speaker A: Well, again, I guess it comes down to one of those things. It was easy, everyone would do it and it is that beautiful, frustrating, fantastic thing of people. Right? It's hard to. You can't jump in the mind of other people, you're not sure what they're thinking. It's that level of vulnerability to put that the communication side and talking is easy for most of us, thankfully. But then going to that next level is where it gets a bit harder. And just like you sort of said, there are people out there that just don't care. And I believe it's a leader's responsibility to help people to care and to see why they should care and stuff like that. Certainly to put them on the path anyway. So yeah, I guess I would say that even I am more of a data driven person. It sounds like you are as well. But even if you're not, those stats, those numbers, the 57% and the 395 billion, it's enough to raise an eyebrow at least, surely, to open up a conversation, isn't it?
[01:05:37] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. It would be for me.
[01:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. And for most. And maybe if it doesn't, maybe they don't care either.
I want to say, of the four, because the five, my question is, if there was one that you would suggest maybe moves the needle more or you think is easier for people to digest a little bit more and to move on this path, what would you pick? And I'm just saying maybe out of the first four, because to me, to choose one of the four, you've got to carve out time, right? You've got to be a bit deliberate about it anyway. So what would you say?
[01:06:15] Speaker B: That's a hard question.
[01:06:19] Speaker A: You didn't come on this show to just have easy questions, did you? Come on.
[01:06:26] Speaker B: You know, I think that probably one of the easiest places to start is the space of listening. So whether that's, you know, carving out formal listening sessions or whether it's just finding a way to practice, I think we say it all the time. I mean, I, you know, you can't pick up any article or blog or even any podcast, honestly, where you don't hear somebody talking about listening.
Again, I think that's one of those places where it is so intellectually easy to say, of course we're going to listen, but if we go back to that idea that the hypothesis that we're trained to know the answers and have the answers and bring the answers, and so many leaders I watch sort of have an internal dialogue that says if I'm, you know, if we look at the move, follow, oppose, and bystand, they have a belief that if they're not moving or making suggestions or putting forth ideas, then they are not leaderful. And I would love for us to all understand that good conversation needs all four of those. It needs both inquiry and advocacy.
And so you don't need to carve out a formal listening session. But I think if all of us this week could just take the action to assert less ideas, even just 5% less of the ideas, and maybe ask 5% more genuine, curious questions, like, it becomes a little bit of an experiment. And with that, just start to notice, what do you notice about the contributions of others when you make those small changes? So I feel like if I had to pick one, it would really be kind of leaning into it and thinking about it as A practice like it's a muscle to build. There are lots of places to build the muscle of asking questions. There's lots of books out there with lots of questions, question ideas.
[01:08:31] Speaker A: Again, I'm a bit of an advocate of that myself. I love that. And I always go back to the. When you say you meet somebody for the first time, or just a friend or whatever, when you've listened to them and allowed to talk and it just might be sharing their story about something or what they've been doing in their day, 100% of the time, they leave the conversation. Generally, when you've listened, you've hardly said a word, and they think, oh, that was such a good conversation, because they've had the chance to talk about themselves and what they're sharing and stuff like that. You don't even have to say what. So listening is actually, again, there's a lot to it and it's deep, but it's actually the easier of the two, isn't it? Yeah, I think maybe the harder of the two to do well, but it's certainly to do it at a level of just sit, take it in, nod. I agree with that. Oy. That's fine.
We actually. Sorry, go.
[01:09:15] Speaker B: I was just going to say, Brendan, I think it gets to this idea that at the very core, as we're working with humans, which is what you and I have been talking about this whole time, we just want to be heard and understood at the end of the day.
And I think if leaders can create the space to do that, I think it changes things significantly.
[01:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah, well said. I think that's a fantastic way to close out this fantastic topic and what you've shared. So we'd like to ask all of our guests on the show the final question of what's helped you build a culture of leadership, whether that's in your business, in your life. What would you say?
[01:09:56] Speaker B: I think one of the things that I most love about Team Catapult and what we've created there is the idea.
It's the space that I was just telling you about that we've carved out on a monthly basis.
And it is that space of creating a space. It's the time that we've created that space for dialogue that's really helped us create a culture where we have made the things happen.
It's not me, it's not one other person. It is the place where I've really seen our culture come out and we have a system and a way of working that's extremely supportive. We, you know, the the rest of the month where we're not having those conversations. You know, that one conversation, I watch it play out in all the small, tiny interactions.
We went from a place many years ago where we. We weren't doing that and it created all kinds of friction, confusion, frustration and today that just doesn't play out. If somebody has a challenge, they sort it out with the other person and it just goes away quickly rather than becoming this residue. So it's the one thing that I'm so I have a visceral and lived felt experience of and it's been awesome to watch happen.
[01:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Well done to you for setting up that space. Is it, I've got to ask, is it always in a more like the environment that you have? Is it always you're doing that in the office or remotely or sometimes you're able to do that in cafe. Does it depend on the situation?
[01:11:39] Speaker B: We are a remote company, so we have people everywhere from Dublin to Cape Town to California.
[01:11:46] Speaker A: So you're not bringing them in for a coffee every month.
[01:11:48] Speaker B: We are not. We are completely online. We do gather usually once a year for like a week long retreat and we take it a little bit deeper than. But. But yeah, the rest of the time it's on a monthly basis online.
[01:12:03] Speaker A: Love it. These modern companies that we have now, eh?
[01:12:07] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:12:09] Speaker A: I love it. Look, Marcia, again, conversation has been fascinating to name what you've shared and the beauty and the simplicity of what you shared as well. They're not things that people need to go away and think. Shivers I better get a degree to learn this stuff. You can do it. And that's the beauty, I think of real leadership. It's not about all this theory and all these wonderful difficult words or whatever. Real action on some of these foundations and basic stuff. And again, I want to plug your book again. We haven't focused on it too much, but a lot of stuff that you've read, I remember from looking through this.
I haven't actually started the work in this, but I've been through it several times in some of the preparation and build your model for leading change.
This is a book that could just stay with you forever. There's so much deepness to it and I reckon if you spent six weeks, six months, six years going through it and then you go back again, you'd just be a different person again. You just keep evolving, wouldn't you?
[01:13:02] Speaker B: For sure.
[01:13:03] Speaker A: Like, is that what you were hoping with something like this?
[01:13:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. You know, I took all the work that we do with leadership Teams and it exists in that book. So often when we're working with leadership teams, that book sits alongside of us and it becomes the place that we keep referring people to, to, you know, lead, put it into action and then grab a page and do some reflection and think about how you're communicating with one another. So I published it because I wanted people to have access to it. It and I do think it's a great way of just engaging your reflection and building that reflective muscle. And yes, I think that the concepts in that book are about building your model for leadership, for living and for change. And the question about building a model for living is what does it mean to build a life worth living or live a life worth living? And then what does it mean for me to leave? What does that look like? And those are not easy questions. And they absolutely evolve over time. Like it is our kind of life's work to be defining what that looks like for us.
[01:14:13] Speaker A: Well, I personally think it's brilliant. I've had been fortunate to have a number of books sent to us that people want to come on the podcast and stuff like that. It's not something I was expecting at all. Like just when I open up, like, this is not a book that. It's a book that you read. There's elements to read. But if you follow the book, it's a workbook. You've got to take action, you've got to do something stuff. And I don't say that to because I think that can turn people away. But if you're really committed to continuing to develop yourself, help your leadership, help how you lead change, manage change and balance that in amongst your life, then this to me is a pretty good damn playbook because it's really self driven stuff as well. And you provide a lot of good information with various models and things that work for you guys. So well done on taking the time to do that and for helping people around the place to pick this up and do something with it.
[01:15:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you. I know a leadership team who made it part of their book club and they used it for about six months ongoing together. And so it didn't involve inviting us at all. It was just a process that they used together. So just another way to use it.
[01:15:21] Speaker A: Love that idea as well.
Again, team collaboration and opposing different perspectives and reflections, living and breathing it to a T. We love it, Marcia. So look again, thanks for being such a fantastic guest on cultural leadership. Great to spend time with you today and really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with our audience.
[01:15:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I really appreciate you having me, Brendan. Thank you.
[01:15:43] Speaker A: It's been a pleasure.
These are my three key takeaways from my conversation with Marcia. My first key takeaway Confident leaders prioritise listening over telling. They create space for their teams to voice opinions, encouraging open and honest communication instead of dominating conversations.
By truly listening, leaders create a culture of trust and ensure that all perspectives are heard, leading to better team alignment and better decisions.
My second key takeaway Confident leaders are transparent about decision making.
They clearly communicate when input is needed and when they will make the final decision, ensuring everyone understands their role in the process.
This transparency builds trust and helps team members feel valued even if their suggestions aren't adopted. My third key takeaway Confident leaders balance collaboration and decisiveness. They know when to get input from their teams and when it's time to take charge and make a decision.
This this balance prevents over collaboration, avoids unnecessary delays, and ensures progress while maintaining team engagement.
So, in summary, my three key takeaways Confident leaders prioritise listening over telling, Confident leaders are transparent about decision making and confident leaders balance collaboration and decisiveness.
Let me know your key takeaway on YouTube or at theculturalleadership.com thanks for joining me. And remember, the best outcome is on the other side of a genuine conversation.
