Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: What does it take to turn a life changing accident into a gold medal winning legacy? In this episode of the Cultural Leadership, we learn about the extraordinary journey of Cameron Carr, founder of Perception Performance and a world and Paralympic champion. From a promising rugby league career to becoming a pioneer in leadership and inclusivity, Cameron's story is one of resilience, purpose and the power of authentic relationships.
Discover how coaching kids reignited his passion, how wheelchair rugby transformed his perspective and why he's committed to reshaping leadership for diverse teams. So get ready to be inspired by this remarkable journey of determination and impact.
Cameron, thanks for coming onto the Cultural Leadership podcast, mate. It's great to have you finally.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Yes, thank you. It's been quite a. Quite a while, but excited to be here.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: It has. Mainly my fault. We had a bit of stuff happening and anyway, it's great to have you on board. Great to meet you finally. We've had a conversation sort of many, many months ago and great to have you put forward by a mutual friend of ours, Michael Crutcher, who runs the Source podcast. A good fellow in himself, he did a shout out to me on his podcast recently, so I thought it was just appropriate that I do a shout out on him as well.
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Well done. I'm sure he'll appreciate that.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: If he bloody listens, we'll find out whether he does.
I'm pretty sure he's going to listen to this episode or watch this episode with you, mate. I said he put you forward and a lot of praise for you, mate. So, mate, look, I know that we're going to get into sort of the accident and this sort of massive change in your life, but what I'd love to do first is you come from a pretty well established rugby league family. Your father was, I think in the first Queensland state of origin team back in the 80s and also your uncle played first grade. So what sort of expectations did that bring on you, either within your family or even outside of the family, from the general public in your own journey?
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Yeah, look, probably reflecting the expectations from within the family. I'd never felt any, you know, I was never pushed to go down the same path. It was probably the expectations that I had on myself and how I wanted to, what I wanted to do and how I was going to get there. But definitely you could feel the comparison all the time as a kid growing up and probably as I moved along my journey and got to that 17, 18 sort of age bracket, you could definitely feel the comparison a little bit, a little bit more, you know, if you're listening to some of the, you're watching some of the videos, doing a review. Quite often you would hear the comparison by a spectator that might be close to the recording.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: It's, it's interesting you see it so often in I guess when kids are making their own journey and parents sort of had some sort of career in that sort of sport beforehand. And again, it's often, I guess like you said, not a lot of expectation or not a lot of pressure from within the family. But there's certainly this expectation outside of the family. What about on yourself? What sort of expectations? You know, having known this year old enough, I think you'd sort of watched your father in a grand final and win for Souths, I think it was. So did you have any sort of high expectations of yourself given that again, your father and uncle were fairly high achieving in their chosen sport?
[00:03:39] Speaker B: I'm sure that, I'm sure that was. It's a, it's a long time ago and how Brendan. But look, I just love the sport, you know, for me, yeah, there may have been an expectation and there may have been certain goals or achievements that I wanted to get to, but also had a bit of a plan, you know, on how I wanted to do that. And when I look back, you know, I didn't see a lot of dad's career. He retired by the time I was nine.
You know, and the stuff that I've seen, we, we were probably very different.
We had very different physical characteristics. You know, I think dad may have been 5 foot 10 or something, played at a fairly light playing weight, probably in 80 kilos, you know, which was probably standard back in the 70s and 80s. Whereas I, I was a little bigger, you know, I think I was 6 foot 3 and a little heavier. So whilst there was some similarities that may have led to some expectations, sort of just concentrated on myself and created my own, my own sort of manageable, I suppose, expectations.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Good to do at a young age. Mate. You said you love the sport, so what did you love about rugby league or just sort of that sport in general?
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah, and probably some of the stuff that's still continues today. I just like being around the team environment and what that can, what that can bring when it's operating well, you know, when you have set a high performing environment, you know, the joy that you get out of achieving things. That was one of, that was one of the big things.
But I also just love the physical contest, you know, whether as a team or as an individual. It's like, hey, I'm going to try and, you know, be challenged to get one over you.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: So basically you just love smashing into people, is that what you're saying?
[00:05:45] Speaker B: We try and do it in a more refined manner, Brandon.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Yes, I'm sure you do. Coming from someone who's never played rugby league. I played some union but never played rugby league. It's sort of, geez, they hit hard. I'll tell you what.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: Well, it's the art of avoiding those hits, right.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: It's a fair point, mate. It's a skill in itself. I bet.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Let's go on to the accident, mate. Let's sort of set this thing, give us a bit of background, sort of the journey you were on this fateful night that happened, which changed the trajectory of your life considerably. Tell us a bit more, mate.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah, so I just signed a contract with the Sydney Roosters and was planning to go down there and move to Sydney.
The morning of, I had my bags packed and I was driving down to Sydney with a friend of mine. I got a phone call from the Roosters just to say, hey, the accommodation that we had planned for you, things have changed. How about instead of driving down now, we fly you down in two weeks time? And I thought that was fantastic. It was like, okay, I don't have to do that drive before the times of mobile phone. So, you know, it would have been trying to get hold of my friend, wherever he was. But they must have done. The Roosters must have done that prior because he didn't show up to my house.
Yeah. So I went, great, I'm going to fly down in two weeks time. So I was living out of my suitcase, you know, for the next week.
I just, I did a talk on International Day with people with a disability and we talked about my accident and compared it to the movie Sliding Doors. And I said I hadn't seen the movie, but I just quickly searched up what the meaning was, just to go, okay, this is popped up.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: You did the TikTok check?
[00:07:35] Speaker B: I did, you know, and it says it was seemingly inconsequential moments that have an impact on, you know, future decisions or the trajectory of your path. And I look at that one, that one moment being quite pivotal, you know, saying, no, I'll come down. So that happened. And then a week later I was at a friend's 21st birthday party and we.
It was a pretty small, small event, just with some close family and friends. And it was wrapping up around midnight, I guess, and we decided a bunch of mates and I decided to go into the City for a couple more, couple more aisles. And a friend of mine got into a maxi taxi and we were sitting in the front and no one had showed, no one had showed up. So I said, I'll go in and hurry them along because the meter's running.
So I went in and they were coming out, a bunch of them were coming out and they all decided, whatever reason, all of them decided they would go home to their separate, to their separate beds. And I thought, oh, that's a good idea. I still have no idea why I chose that path or that decision.
That's a good idea. I'll go home and call it a night and get a good night's sleep. So I went back to the taxi. Enjoy, enjoy your night and I'll see you tomorrow for a game of touch football. And I got into a car for a drive that we'd done many times before. It was a five minute drive and we got all but 200 meters from, from home, from the driveway. And the driver, he fell asleep, rolled the car and I was in the backseat and broke my neck.
That was the end of any aspirations to play, to play rugby league professionally.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: And mate, you made the reference of sliding doors movie. I mean, I'm sure you're not doing it now. You've built a life and we'll go into some of this and what you're doing, but an inspirational journey. How many times and how long were you playing that story through your head and like the what if scenario, you know, it sounded like even your decision to be a responsible 21 year old, which I certainly wasn't at that age, and to go home, that was, you know, that was a pitiful moment.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: It was, I was, I was 19, so I was even more responsible as a 19 year old.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: Oh, shivers. Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: So I, yeah, like I said, I don't know.
[00:10:15] Speaker A: Responsibility.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: The what ifs lasted a long time.
You know, I spent six months in hospital rehabbing and that's all about getting out, you know, that's okay. Is your new best mate, which has got four wheels. Get used to it. They don't, you know, you don't get a handbook. Okay, now your life's changed quite dramatically. This is how, this is how you approach it. So I spent six months in hospital just rehabbing and getting out, you know, it wasn't, you know, hospital is not a great environment anyway. But when you're in there long term for six months, you know, it just. And I had no involvement with hospitals, you know, prior to that, as a 19 year old so no understanding really about hospitals or the environment and definitely no understanding about someone living with a disability.
And then when I got home that's when reality really hit hard.
I spent probably the next six years just asking that question, what if you know, why did it happen to me and how do I get that old life back? Because I was quite comfortable with what was happening. So yeah, six years of a pretty dark place just continually just trying to understand why this had happened, happened to me.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: Yeah mate, look, I can't even sort of comprehend or you know, try and imagine that myself. But many, many years ago, a short story. I did some work in a place called the Helwen center which was in Brisbane. So I can't remember. It might have been in the gap or something. There was a school and a place for profoundly handicapped children and I met her and spent time with a young boy there. And he was up until the age of 10 was able body and unfortunately was at his grandparents place and somehow got into their medicine cabinet and became profoundly handy. And that just like, like even to this day that sort of cuts me up big time and I'm just an outsider, not even part of that family. I mean the impact on you and the impact on your family like this whole life changing thing, like how do you like just give us some insight into your mindset over that sort of time to start to comprehend this. I know you say it was a six year journey, it was a long one but can you just give us some insight into that mindset needed to make that, to make that move in some sort of positive direction in the hybrid working world. I've seen too many business owners and their businesses suffer because of poor performing employees leading to below average results. If you want to improve your employees performance to deliver consistent results for your business, you have to master one on one meetings. The doors to our master one on one meetings training program are opening soon. I'll teach you how to improve employee performance and deliver consistent results using one on one meetings. To be one of the first people notified when the doors open. Go to leaderbydesign AU waitlist. Don't wait. Sign up now.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: Someone asked me that question the other day actually and I went oh, hopefully you're not looking with some further insight because look I hid away. That was, that was my coping mechanism. I just decided you know what, I can go and I can sleep and I can sleep long hours and when I'm sleeping I'm free. I'm not in the wheelchair, I'm just yet so.
And I still had quite a competitive mindset. So I would, I would compete with myself. And those competitions probably weren't healthy. Healthy Brendan. But it was. How long can I stay inside? For how long can I stay inside my house? For how long can I stay inside my room for just withdrawing from society because I'm not there yet in terms of being vulnerable or exposing myself to society, but just in terms of that shift.
Pico must have been around 25, I'd moved out of home.
It's probably drinking a little bit too much, you know, not doing the right things.
And I just woke up one morning and went, wow, you know, all this sort of negotiation and bargaining that I think I'm doing with a higher power, it's not working, you know, and I need to make some changes now.
And the best way that I thought to make those changes was to go back to a space where I felt comfortable in and that was in a sort of sporting environment.
So I just went, you know what, I'm 25, I need to get fit and I need to get active. So that was, yeah, that was the shift that that went. That I had or that I made.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: You're a professional, mate. You've sort of lent me into the next question for me. But you've explained or in your story that you share with me, you talked about the sort of accident as seeing it as life ending and then needing to move to this life changing sort of mindset. How did the, you know, the opportunity, or maybe the forced opportunity on you to start to coach your brother's rugby team, how did that help start to move you from that life ending to life changing mindset?
[00:16:10] Speaker B: I'm laughing now because I'm thinking of the conversation. So they actually wanted to get dad involved in coaching him. And dad actually coached me for a couple of junior years. And I'm sure anyone out there that's listening that has a parent coach them in a sport, you know, it's, it can be a rocky path, it can test relationships and it can test, it can test the.
Especially between parents. Right when you're going home going, dad did this and this to me at training.
Why is he being a turd?
So I don't know whether dad wanted to go down.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: That was taking up your side, not your dad.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Good on your mum.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Because I was faster to get out of the car.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: Oh, classic.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: Especially if I had to open the gate or something like that. It's like, yeah, watch how fast I get to mum. And that story has just been told.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: Your side of the Story first.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: There's no opportunity for you to do so.
Dad was probably reluctant to go, oh, look, it can go pear shape.
You know, I don't want that. I probably don't want to have that. He probably didn't want to have that extra headache. So Eddie probably thought it was a great opportunity to try and force me to get out of the house. Because I know Mum and Dad tried to do that originally with some sport. When you're going through hospital, they introduce you a whole range of different sporting activities to try and get you, you know, as part of your rehab. And I just denied them all.
So I remember there was times they sort of forced me in the car, drove me to the stadium, and I just refused to get out of the stadium, out of the car. You know, I was quite, quite stubborn.
And that happened throughout a lot of family friends throughout those six years. But, yeah, I think dad went, you know what this, I'll ask him to see if he's interested in getting involved.
So I said yes. I coaxed my cousin and a good friend to come along with, on the journey with me.
But it was probably three years and they were 12 to 15, I think the age groups I coached three years in a row.
And children are brutally honest, you know, it's. Yeah, they're all. They're authentic, you know, which is. Which is probably some of the hard realities and truths that I needed at the time.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: I guess, relating to that. You bought a new definition to armchair critic. You were the car coach critic or something like that. Won't you tell us more about that scenario and where the feedback came from that child?
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's got nothing to do with our surname and me being a critic of Dad's ability to coach? No, no, no, it's the actual R. Yeah, yeah, it's just the automobile. So that was part of the.
The mindset where I was at was, okay, I can.
I've seen coaches sort of sit up in coaching boxes with, with walkie talkies and headsets and so forth.
There's no reason why I can't do it from my car, so I'll coach this team from the car. Problem is that is most football grounds are within a fenced area. Right. So the, the vision of the, of the ground wasn't. Wasn't great. So.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: You didn't have your film crew.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: That transformational idea of coaching quickly got. Yeah, it got squashed.
But I suppose that was the stepping stones for me to go, okay, I can rationalize it. What does it look like? This is What I'll do, it didn't work. So yeah, I just was forced to go the normal, the normal coaching path and get out of my car.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: And I mean, I am honing in on this a little bit because at least from the story I'm aware of and what you've shared with me, this scenario was a pivotal moment. Is it in sort of taking on that journey and do you remember looking back sort of when you started to enjoy this process and actually feel like it, even though you'd had this life changing situation and given this was six years later, but you're starting to feel like, okay, I'm contributing back to society, let's say I'm contributing to these kids and them enjoying the game and loving the game that I love as well.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: The pivotal word that you use was contributing. And I think everyone wants to feel like they're contributing to society.
So that, that was a big aspect of it and that was one of the big drivers. And the two other things is it, it gave me a sense of identity which I had lost.
You know, I went from being growing up, being norm son to try and break that shadow to then sort of start getting out of that and identified, you know, what am I? I'm a rugby league player.
That was all taken away and I did not want to identify as someone with a disability.
You know, that's what I fought hard against.
So coming back to coaching, you know, it gave me a little bit more of an identity and it gave me some purpose, you know, which was the other, the other big thing. You know, I had something to do and something to look forward to three times a week.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: And what was it about coaching kids that gave you that, that sense of purpose, sense of identity? Like what did you love about that?
[00:22:00] Speaker B: It wasn't the reimbursement from being an under 12 coach.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: I've coached young football, soccer, people and yes, I understand.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: Well, it, it put me in that team of oriented environment again. Yeah, they were 12 and 13, you know, but what it did was we were working towards something together. It was bringing those kids in, okay, what do we want to do? How do we want to do it?
And really working with them and you know, building their confidence and their skill set and you know, trying to change their, their understanding of what their role was in the team. You know, we had some young kids that would just go, I, I'm a front rower, I don't pass, kick or do anything like that. I was like, okay, but let's, let's try and work on those things. Because you may be a front rower now, but your role may change. And, yeah, let's, you know, working on things with kids, you know, that was probably the most enjoyable part.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, look, I'm no rugby league expert, but you can certainly see how the game's changed over the decades. Right. And those front rowers, mate, they're as good as the halves nowadays as far as passing and kicking and all that sort of stuff. Not all of them, but they're pretty decent.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: They're pretty decent, you know, and they're. They're a lot bigger.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
Pre accident, post accident, did people treat you differently?
[00:23:47] Speaker B: Yeah, they do, they did.
Because now I was part of a minority group that has strong societal stereotypes. You know, the bias and discrimination, it's like, wow, this is really happening. You know, six months ago, those questions wouldn't have been asked of me, or, you know, that opinion wouldn't have been.
That opinion wouldn't have been made.
And now all these things are. Yeah. So.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: Can you give us an example of something like that?
[00:24:29] Speaker B: One of the big things is people not talking to you, you know, other than all the discrimination, bias, the assumptions that are made around people with disability, you know, and that's an education and awareness piece that's still going on.
It's.
It's having a conversation with someone and it still happens now with my wife. My wife, sometimes if I'm. If the kids have beaten me down and I'm a bit tired, we'll just let it pass. But other times, you know, you just go, it's. They've beat me down too much, the kids. I need to be. I need to interject here, and I can be quite sort of blunt, because you know what? I can answer that question because it's involving me and I have the answer for it. So, you know, that's a. That's a big one that continues. And I.
Look, I can't think of this particular specific time when it happened, but it happened a lot. And it was one of the first things that I did notice post accident.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: What about the kids you coach? Did they treat you different for a bit?
[00:25:39] Speaker B: You know, probably for the first one or two. And I'm not talking about everyone, you know, a kid's great, like I said, they just get on with things. They're adaptable, they're resilient. They're all those things that you want in a workforce when they get older. But I do remember the first conversation that one of the kids came down. I was like, oh, who are you?
Hi, I'M Cameron, I'm a new coach. He's like, nah, you can't coach, you're in a wheelchair.
Okay, fair point. But let's see how we go.
You know, you just gotta laugh at those things, you really do because they mean nothing by and you know, they're part of the system and we don't know how they, you know, conversations and interactions that they've had that have led them to that, that remark. But I do remember one time when my cousin and my mate who were the assistant coaches weren't there and we're at training and I was like, ah, okay guys, let's go for a jog. And you know, sometimes you get that old school coaching mentality was like, hey, well you've dropped the ball, let's do some push ups and, or something. And I remember one of the fronts, same kid looked up to me and went, well you're going to make me because your minders aren't here now.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: There's always one little smart ass, isn't there?
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, like you do what you want to do. No, I'm not gonna make it.
Don't drop the ball.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Did you win him over eventually or you just.
[00:27:17] Speaker B: He was one of those kids, right, that was, yeah, a bit rough around the edges but yeah, probably had a, a heart of golden, you know, just had this, this personality that you sort of probably drawn to.
Could be in jail now. I don't know.
[00:27:37] Speaker A: Oh maybe. I mean like you said earlier, it is the beauty of kids isn't it? They, they pretty much tell it how it is and it's pretty unfiltered. That can be really positive and that can come from another place. But there's not necessarily, they're not old enough to have that really bad intent behind what they're saying a lot of the time.
[00:27:53] Speaker B: Totally. And I remember still in rehab not long after my accident and I was going to a pool to do some swimming and they put you in at the time, they put you in a PVC pipe sort of chair to go in the pool, right? And this five year old came up to me and I just had a really cranky day and his five year old came up. When you can't bring that thing, you can't bring that thing in the pool and what happened to you? And I was like, looked and went, I ate too many lollies, buddy. And his face has dropped me alone from then on in.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: Oh mate, that's, I love that. Absolutely. Let's hope they've, they've reduced their lolly intake, then off the back of that. Yeah, you've served the community well, mate.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: I, I have. The parents should have thanked me.
[00:28:43] Speaker A: I mean, in all seriousness, the. I mean, really, those kids, like, to some extent you need to thank them. I mean, yes, your dad, and maybe he had this sort of ulterior master stroke thinking, which is probably the case. A smart guy. But, you know, those kids have really helped you get to where you are today in this ongoing journey where you're going to and so much more to give. You know, you're still a young fellow like me. We got heaps to give, mate.
[00:29:10] Speaker B: Got my own kids now, so it's 247 getting worn down by those kids as opposed to three times a week. But yeah, look, I do need to refer effect on. On those kids and that part of the journey which was quite pivotal. I don't know whether dad had any grander plan other than just to get me out of his hair for three days a week.
And, you know, probably his grand plan was probably, yep, I'll get him out of my hair and then he'll move out and I'll get my house back.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: Well, either way, like parents should, they can take credit for these things, whether it was a master stroke or not, or just luck, if something worked out. All right, what. What took you? Let's sort of keep moving forward. What took you? Or how did the whole wheelchair rugby come about?
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Yeah, like I touched on earlier, when you go into the spinal unit, you know, you're introduced to a lot of different things as part of your rehab journey. Wheelchair rugby was one of those, you know, it was probably the closest to rugby league in terms of, you know, the environment.
It was just, it just seemed like a natural thing to do. It was actually designed back in the 70s for individuals that sort of broke their neck at the level that I had.
So, yeah, it was the one that was shining the brightest.
Yeah, but it still took a while to get down there.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: What sort of. Before I sort of ask why around that. What sort of other options did you consider, if any?
[00:31:04] Speaker B: I didn't really like when I was sitting on the lounge when I need to need to change something, I need to get fit and I need to start being active.
I started hand cycling. I remember the physio that I had in hospital that introduced me to a number of different things. Hand cycling was one of those and it's something that I can do and I still do it now as an escape. A little bit of mindfulness is just to get on the hand cycle. And sort of the goats, it's quite freeing and you can have time to reflect and space to think up some brand new schemes. But hand cycling was the original and then the physio did say, oh, look, he's still interested in wheelchair rugged because they have a new, great new program now here in Queensland. We've got a coach out from the U.S.
i think it came off the back of a couple years after the Sydney Paralympic Games where they had got a silver medal, but all just sort of, sort of aligned and yeah, I, he, he, he talked me into going down and having a look.
[00:32:15] Speaker A: And why did it take you so long?
[00:32:17] Speaker B: I just, it's probably. We talked about stereotypes, you know, and for me, like I said, I didn't identify as someone with a disability. Yeah, I was using a wheelchair, but I didn't want to be part of that group.
And I had all the same stereotypes and bias and discrimination against people with disability.
You know, it's like, well, I don't want to play a sport.
You know, I love playing rugby league and that's a sport that I want to play. I don't even want to entertain doing something different because it's not going to give me the same level of enjoyment or excitement.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: And I'm interested to understand what put you in your place, so to speak. Like, was it another person with a disability going through a similar thing or was it something else?
[00:33:11] Speaker B: Look, one thing that it did do, this was it provided that peer support that I didn't have. So I went home from hospital and I tried to just continue to live the same life that I had prior to my accident. So, and we were all learning, so I had no, I had no idea about being in a wheelchair. My family had no idea, my friends had no idea. So there was no level of support there that go, okay, this is what you need to do and this is how you do it and this is what's achievable. So that was one of the things. But the first thing was as soon as I went into that, that court or that basketball court and there were, there was a game going on when I arrived at training that night and, you know, there was just a lot of banging, swearing.
It was just frustration, you know, people wanting to tear each other's hair heads off. And I was like, wow, this is, this is a totally different picture to what I'd been playing out in my head. I thought they might have been, you know, just sitting around having cups of tea, you know, knitting, you know, not wanting to get hurt. But it's like, no, you put them, you put them in a chair and in an environment, a competitive environment, they're.
People with this disability are just like everyone else. You know, we. We want to win and we'll, we'll do it any way that we can.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: Sound like a masochist, mate. You couldn't get signed up quick enough.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: That all that's going to be edited.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: And I'll take that out because it didn't sound great.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: No, it sounded fantastic.
I used to get. My chosen sport was football, soccer, but, you know, always get a bit of frustration out on the weekend. Nothing wrong with that, mate. So whatever sport you choose to do.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: Yeah, and you could, you could, you could just imagine the frustration a lot of these people had. You know, it's like, okay, I'm going to take it out. And, you know, there will be people.
Some people turn up out of hospital, you know, as part of the rehab program. So they're just newly injured, and it didn't matter if they decided to get in the wheelchair. There were some crazy guys that were like, well, you're in. You're now playing. I'm going to try and knock you out of that chair. You know, mum's on the sideline freaking out because her son's just broken neck going, wrap him in cotton wool. Don't touch him. And you've got other guys going, okay, we're gonna. It's fair game.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Absolutely. And again, I have seen some of this wheelchair rugby, like, it is a. It seems like a vicious game. There must be some serious injuries come from these sort of clashing and banging and all sorts of stuff.
[00:35:52] Speaker B: Yes, it can be. You know, you're spending a lot of money. I think it's. Now for a chair, it's probably upwards of $15,000.
And if you're competing at an international level, you might get 18 months or two years, depending on your role, out of that chair. So, you know, you. The chair's taking most of the hits and the way they're designed, but, yeah, look, you can, you can. Things can go a little bit wrong for me. I was pretty lucky. You know, you had some wear and tear of your shoulders. But the only injury that I had, it was probably eight weeks prior to the Rio Paralympic Games. And I was playing a game and I thought my friend was supposed to block the other. It was a Japanese player, it was supposed to block him, but he hit him with such force that he drove him into me and jumped up on my chair and it hit my. Hit my hand and I went, oh, that and we're wearing gloves. And I went, oh, that. That stung a little but the game went on for another 30 seconds and I sort of pushed down the end of the court and went off.
This is still stinging. While that time I'm just going to take my glove off. And I took my glove off and I had actually did a compound dislocation of my ring finger so my bone was sticking through my finger.
Positive was I had eight weeks for Rio. So I actually took the, I took the cast off in our final training session over in Rio de Janeiro. So yeah, that was probably the worst injury that I've sustained.
[00:37:25] Speaker A: But yeah, there's a.
Wow, mate. Again, like any sport there's always going to be injuries. But that sounds like the sort of one. If you took the glove off and I was there, it's probably pass out moment for me, mate. I'm not sure I can handle that sort of stuff.
[00:37:38] Speaker B: It took a little while. I went to the first aid lady and she was sort of, you know, just sitting there. She was an old lady just sitting there eating a muffin, not really paying attention and. And I've gone up and I showed.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: You biscuits you talked about earlier, wasn't it?
[00:37:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just like, oh, maybe I think someone in ice pack or don't call on me. And I, I went up to her and said, oh, look, I've got this here. And she looked at it and you know the knuckle sticking out and there wasn't that much blood and she's like, oh, what is it? Is that a pimple?
And I was like, no, it's not a pimple, it's a.
She's like, no, it's not because she's like when did you do this?
And I was like, I did it yesterday but you told me to go home and sleep on it to see if it would heal. And now I've returned and.
Yeah, and I went, no, I'm joking, I just did it then. Did you not hear all that banging kerfuffle. That's my bone. I think we need to do more than get an ice pack or a band aid.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: There's no doubt about you, mate, you've got a sense of humor through all of this sort of stuff, pre and post, I suppose, but it sounds like a bit of it support. Right, Level one, they sort of tap out here and you need to go to level two, level three to get the help you needed.
[00:38:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[00:38:55] Speaker A: That's what happened again, linking this back to Leadership qualities, and there's no doubt about in the level that you were in, the path you were on and sort of what you've done post, you've had leadership qualities right the way through. But what sort of qualities do you think you develop further in your whole sort of representing Australia in the. In the wheelchair and being co captain of again, you won gold, won silver, and also won a world championship. I think so, yeah. What did you develop? Develop?
[00:39:24] Speaker B: I think all along, you know, it was really important about role modeling. And when I left school, I actually, I'd signed a contract with the South Queensland Crushers, the now defunct train rugby league team. So there's a bunch of us to go and. And I wasn't doing the right things at the time, and I was asked to go down to the Logan City Scorpions with a couple of friends to work on some things. And I remember dad saying to me, and this is probably one of the only bits of advice that he really passed on, he's like, okay, you're going down there. Make sure that you keep the same level of expectation that you have on yourself and make sure you're doing all the right things and bring everyone up to your standard.
Don't lower your standard. So for me, always is about role modeling, you know, and leading from the front and wheelchair rugby. When I was made, when you're put into that role and some of the learnings that I've had after it, because everyone. All leaders have their hiccups. Right. And had some time to reflect. Okay, what would I do differently? And for me, it's just understanding. Yep. You've set some rules, some expectations, you've got a purpose that everyone is working towards, but you also have a team of individuals. They're going to respond in individual ways.
You can't lead the same way with everyone and expect the same results.
[00:41:08] Speaker A: Was there any. I guess a most challenging time you had that you could share in co captaining the Australian wheelchair rugby team. You know, either that was with another teammate or maybe another member of an opposition team or even some officials. You know, that sort of. You really had to think twice about.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: I don't think your podcast is long enough to go down. The officials.
[00:41:31] Speaker A: Oh, yes, we love officials, mate.
[00:41:35] Speaker B: Just for my son. My son's 12 and we've made him referee. Now he plays the mozzie rule and we've made him referee to get an appreciation.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:44] Speaker B: Of. Of what referees go through.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Funny how we never did that, though.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: No, it actually gets paid now.
Whereas I think you may have Got like a can of coke and a pack of chips or something. When, when we were younger.
Look, there's lots of things, but one, one particular story that I can think of, top of my head, and that had to do with working through a pretty traumatic time for one of the, one of our players. So we were in London, one of the young guys that was over there, and I was pretty close to him.
I went into his room, it's probably a week before the games was about to start, and I went into his room and he just looked down and something was off. And I was like, you know, what's, what's going on? And he said, oh, did you hear about the, the guys over in. I think it was in Afghanistan at the time. There was an insurgent come in and kill a couple of soldiers. I was like, no, I didn't. When did that happen? And he's like, it happened, you know, overnight.
One of those guys was a close schoolmate.
So it was just creating the space in the environment to discuss with him what's going to be best for him, how do we communicate this to the wider team and how do we get the supports necessary, you know, and do you still want to be here? He'd come over by himself. His parents didn't come over with him.
So we were his support network over there. So it, it was just working through that space and to go, okay, well if going to play on, we still need you to perform at a high level and how do we do that and be mindful of what has just happened.
[00:43:50] Speaker A: And how did that move forward? So, like, what sort of support did that person need from you as a, as a captain of the team?
[00:43:57] Speaker B: Probably just, just, just to listen. And I think, you know, as you get older and you step into those leadership spaces, it's like you're not going to have all the answers.
Sometimes I don't want an answer. It's creating a space for him to work that through himself and determine, okay, well, where do I want to go next? And then when that decision is made, then rallying around and going, okay, how are we as a team, as a wider group going to get you there? And also keeping in mind the needs of the team and what we were there for.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: Yeah, well said, mate. It leads to that sort of trust and team cohesion stuff and may seem a silly question, but I want you to unpack this anyway, that how important is it with, on the field, off the field, those relationships, that level of trust and team cohesion in order to create success in environment like that.
[00:44:58] Speaker B: It's the number one, you know, that relationship building, you know, and that's whether it's in the sporting world or in a business environment.
You know, I think I shared with you offline that in between the time of you inviting me on the program, to actually being on the program, I've now completed my master's in leadership. And my biggest takeaway from that master's is.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Can you just. Sorry to interrupt, but just don't dig at me, all right. It's taken that long. You've actually completed a master's?
Sorry about.
[00:45:35] Speaker B: I didn't want to bring that up. I just thought.
[00:45:40] Speaker A: It'S been a while.
[00:45:41] Speaker B: It's been. Yes, It'll be quality, though, hopefully. Brendan.
[00:45:45] Speaker A: It is. It is. It's gold.
[00:45:48] Speaker B: Yeah. The number one takeaway was it's all about relationships and how you treat people and what you. What you bring to that.
You know, when you look at leadership, you try and sum it up. It's. For me, it's the interactions that happen between people and it's not what is actually done to people.
[00:46:14] Speaker A: You mentioned the whole master of leadership a couple of times. I know you're not digging, mate. It's all good.
What confidence has that given you? Like, what has that actually given you, do you think over and above sort of what you've been able to develop through real life experience?
[00:46:34] Speaker B: Look, there's a lot of, you know, when you're going through it, you realize is, wow, there's a lot of theory, a lot of literature, a lot of different thoughts around leadership.
Like I said before, that observing it, being part of it, and now learning about it. I still come back to, if you want that team to perform, you need to have the relationships there. You know, you can't. You can't. Unless you're a dictator and that doesn't turn out that well. You can't lead people if you don't have followers, you know, and everyone aspires to be like someone that they.
That they admire or want to be like. So, yeah, you really need to build those strong foundational relationships.
[00:47:31] Speaker A: Sorry, go on, mate.
[00:47:33] Speaker B: No, just thinking a little more. You know, I think there's, like I said, there's a lot of theory, but I can't remember the study, but the three common. The three common traits of a high performing team were diversity, psychological safety and a purpose worth fighting for, you know, and that. That building of that psychologically safe space in order to build those relationships.
[00:48:08] Speaker A: Do you find in your experience, both sporting and in the business world today, that People either understand the enormous value and importance of relationships or do they undervalue it in your experience?
[00:48:23] Speaker B: It's totally undervalued.
Yep.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: Tell us more. Why do you say that?
[00:48:32] Speaker B: I think people just get too busy. Right.
And we. If the norms of the environment haven't been set and you are following a leader that doesn't believe in relationships, just brilliant. This is, you know, and quite often we get leadership and management confused, you know, and can be quite task orientated.
So I think we just need to be really mindful when we're put into a leadership position or put into an environment where it may not be where we need them to be, that we don't start shifting towards those norms that we really focus on. Hey, let's start really focusing on relationships rather than always being task orientated. Because at the end of the day, you know, the easiest path forward is just to get the task done, to get the money in the bank.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: Yeah, look, I agree with you. I think it's severely undervalued and I think that there's.
You'd actually said something to me before we started recording about, you know, the, what the, what the models of relationship of leadership are and what we sort of see and classify as leadership. And it's a bit of that, isn't it? It's almost like when I have a couple of clients that think a little about this this way and you've got to sort of rein them in a bit. It's almost looking for the next fancy tool around leadership rather than saying, you know what, we've got some relationship issues in our team, let's work through those and then we can leverage that into having real conversations because you guys will have the answers, but the relationships aren't strong enough. In order to have the conversation, you need to have to resolve those issues rather than trying to put in a fancy tool.
[00:50:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's 100%. Those conversations, the really deep conversations that need to be had to drive performance, you can't have them because you don't, you haven't created that, that safe space in order to build the relationships that are necessary.
I think, I think we hold on to like you touched on some of those, those characteristics or traits and we all look towards. I know I definitely did when I was put into a leadership role early on is like, you need to be that hero leader, you need to be the loudest in the room, you need to be telling everyone what to do. This is the way we do it. And if you don't, you're off the Ship.
But we've evolved as a society now and we probably expect and want more from our leaders. And that is a lot of it is that sense of belonging, connection.
[00:51:02] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I'm also a big advocate of. There's a time and a place for different styles of leadership, isn't it? You know, that autocratic style can come in very handy certainly in a crisis or needs to make swift change, but it doesn't work for everything. It's like, you know, get the sledgehammer hammer out for the same nail. That's not the way to go.
[00:51:20] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. You know, I work in for a mining company currently, so yeah, look, there is a time and place when it's a safety critical issue.
Sort of outside of that, you know, you need to sort of adapt and mold your leadership styles.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: Absolutely, mate. Let's talk. I'd love to learn about the. I know next year, early next year, you're going sort of back into your own thing and really starting to drive that in 2025.
Perception performance. What inspired you to start this business called Perception Performance?
[00:51:53] Speaker B: Look, I just think personally I love driving either a high performing individual or an individual to do better or that team, let's work together. I love the connections that you make, the relationships and the overall outcome, the feeling you get of achieving an outcome that you've set out to do.
So, you know, sitting back and observing both the sporting world and now in business world and sometimes our leaders just, you know, they don't know how to do that. They don't create the space to sit back and reflect and go how, how do we do that? And I just thought it was just a, it was just a natural progression for me to go, you know what?
I now have a number of different perspectives on how we can get individuals and teams to where we need to.
Yeah, why not? Why not have a crack?
[00:52:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. You might have a crack. Who do you hope to help?
[00:53:03] Speaker B: Anyone that needs help.
You know, anyway, a lot of people.
[00:53:07] Speaker A: Out there that need help. Not everyone is open to it.
[00:53:09] Speaker B: Yeah, look, it's, there's a couple of, couple of things. You know, I go and you're always evolving and changing and you know, it's, it's business, it's sport, it's changing mindsets. You know, it's sitting down with someone, whether it's an individual team and just sitting down with them and having a conversation and really creating that space and asking those challenging questions that people may not ask themselves. You know, we can be quite fearful and we run scenarios through our heads and we have all these preconceived assumptions and that stops us from actually challenging ourselves. So it's just breaking through that barrier to achieve success. So I've got that and just recently, you know, sitting in the role that I now sit in and we sort of manage the psychosocial hazards in the workplace and we case manage those as well. So when things have gone bad in terms of, you know, behavior discrimination, you know, role clarity, all those, I think there's 14 or 15 common psychosocial hazards. When they, when they go bad, they reach out to us and go, okay, what can we do about it? You know, we might mediate, work with leaders, work with individuals in addressing those challenges. But one of the things that I did see was it some. And this is sort of wider than the company I work for, the industry, it's more of a societal thing, is the challenge of really being an inclusive workplace and bringing those diversity groups in. And I just don't think we're doing it correctly.
I think we can do a whole lot better. So what I'm sort of focusing on now is driving the change and holding those groups accountable. It's like there's no reason why those diverse groups that we're bringing in need to be a tick and flick exercise just to meet a KPI. It's like, hey, let's get them performing. Let's get them performing as part of any other team and let's hold them accountable. We just need to do it. We need to put the systems in place in order to have those challenging conversations. So it's. Yeah, it's. I don't. Theaters recruitment. It's more of identify some individuals that can meet some certain targets for your group, but let's coach them so they're performing, they're performing at a high level.
I'm really sort of focused on that at the moment.
And in doing my Masters, I was blown away by the lack of representation of people with a disability at either senior leadership roles or on board levels. You know, I think for me to try and find some Data on the ASX 300 listed companies, I couldn't get any data of someone with a disability being on a board at a senior leadership role. You know, if someone with a disability is in one of those positions, it's generally in a. Not for profit or in a, you know, in a disability sector organisation.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: I've never thought about that, mate. And you just raised such an important point. There'd be going back to what you said earlier, like there'd be without a doubt Unbelievable biases around people with disability reaching to those levels. I mean they may not be able bodied but certainly able mind. And you know, the conversation we have today and the insight that you share, like you know, I mean we're just people and we've got all different challenges and yours happens to be more physical. But yeah, geez, that's a, that's a really interesting. Is that, is that something that in your sort of business or where you're working now, but even moving forward into your business that you're really going to pick up the mantle and, and try and sort of push for.
[00:56:53] Speaker B: Yeah, 100 I am and I've never looked at myself as an advocate but you know, what's the saying? You can only be what you can see. And for me when I look at, particularly in the organizational. Matt, now you're looking up going, okay, how do I get there? Well, there's no one that actually looks like me and there's, there's no path there for someone like me. I need to create my own path. So yeah, it's just creating that path and hopefully bringing people along for the journey as well. And that's just not for people with disability, it's for all minority or diverse groups. I think we try to do diversity in silos and they just fall over, they really do because they don't have the support necessary.
And you did ask me earlier on, you know, post accident, was there a change in people's sort of behavior around me and I even felt that if I go to an event, you know, even now and I'm introduced as his Cameron the Paralympian, these medals that everyone wants to come up and have a chat, you strip that title away and I'm Cameron in a wheelchair. There is a whole level of, you know, assumptions, bias and discrimination put on me.
So just reframing how we look at these diversity groups.
[00:58:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, I really don't hear a lot of talk when people talk about sort of DEI space and stuff like that where the diversity side and inclusion is, even the mention of people with disability and stuff, it's all about sort of race and ethnicity and all that sort of stuff. But it does sound like a pretty forgotten group, mate.
[00:58:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. And like I said, you know, I had my head down, just sort of running my own race. And it wasn't until you sort of sat back and I'm like, well I'm still having these challenges of equity, not because people don't want to do it, I just, there's a probably a fear on how do we do it? And we don't want to upset anyone. That's why we don't challenge people, you know, from diverse groups the way we need to. Because we're, we're, we're so politically correct sometimes that we're afraid to really challenge someone to be the best that they can be.
[00:59:13] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. It gets in the way a lot of good stuff, doesn't it? All that rubbish. But let me just talk about, or ask you about discomfort. It's fair to say given through this conversation and people learning about your story, you've experienced an element of discomfort. Is that fair to say, mate?
[00:59:29] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
[00:59:31] Speaker A: How do you either in the future or what you've done in the past in your leadership roles? And so how do you help people? How do you encourage people, how do you guide people working through discomfort? Because again, leadership is really about embracing discomfort based on your own experience. How do you help people with that?
[00:59:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just creating that space to sit down and have a conversation and really work out what the driver is or what's making you really uncomfortable, you know, and once we sort of can identify that, then we can have a conversation. Okay, well is it real? What can we do about it and how do we remove that? Sometimes it's just going to always be there and you need to learn to live with it and manage it. Right.
But yeah, first of all, you really need to identify what it is.
[01:00:26] Speaker A: I want to talk about you as the family man. Again, as far as my business goes, I generally am attracted, and business owners who are attracted to me, who are family orientated business owners trying to get a bit of balance and harmony back in their life. You've got, you share with me, you've got a 12 year old son and 8 year old twin girls. What sort of, and you've mentioned this word, role model. What sort of role model do you want to be for your own children?
[01:00:54] Speaker B: Because you need them here to answer this question. It will be very different to the one that I, I will give you.
Look, they're, they're three individuals, what I suppose my wife and I, and I'm fortunate that you know, my wife offers plenty of support and guidance for me and how to be a parent or be a better parent.
[01:01:15] Speaker A: Mine does the same.
[01:01:16] Speaker B: But the one, the one thing that we really want to instill in our kids or what I want to leave in them is a strong set of values and making sure they're guided by those values and they're the correct values. Right. They might be theirs but, yeah, let's make sure that as a human being, you're a decent person first and your guide. And don't forget those. When you're faced with challenging times, challenging groups, you know, could be a demanding leader.
Just hold true to those values.
[01:01:55] Speaker A: Yeah, look, I've not met your wife, but, you know, getting to know you a bit, they've certainly got someone to look up to in yourself and I'm sure your wife, they don't have to go far to find inspiration in their life. I don't think, again, reflecting on their dad and where their dads come from and where you're going and what you're doing and what you hope to do in the world moving forward. Yeah, it's just a walk down the hallway, I imagine, for inspiration for them or it should be.
[01:02:21] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I direct them past me and said, go to your mum, because.
[01:02:25] Speaker A: She'S even more inspirational.
[01:02:27] Speaker B: More inspirational. I didn't have a choice in this, this, this path that she's joined me for the journey, you know, and she has to pick up all the pieces when, when I drop them and unfortunately, you know, I get, I get the accolades because they go, look at the guy in the wheelchair doing these things. Whereas, you know, she's the one. Yeah.
[01:02:57] Speaker A: What sort of. I mean, again, you spoke to a little bit, but, you know, if you were to sit down, sit with your children and just say, look, here's a couple of lessons that I really want to share that where I'm at in my life, that are going to hold you in good stead, what would those one or two lessons be?
[01:03:11] Speaker B: Yeah, look, there's probably. And everyone has their sort of three guiding principles, I suppose. And for me, and when I talk about perception, performance, it's adaptability, it's resilience and it's clarity. If you can sort of use those three, you know, there's going to be times in life where things are going to get tough and you're going to be a little bit. You're going to need to show some resilience and dig in date. But resilience can only take you so far. And we, I think sometimes we use that word a little too much. And if you're not adaptable, that resilience is going to. You're just going to get pounded down, right. And you're not going to move forward. So you need to sort of stick your head up and go, well, yep, I'm holding it here and I'm being resilient and holding the weight, but how do I Remove the weight to be adaptable and then it's getting that clarity. Okay, where's the next step forward?
[01:04:01] Speaker A: We're going to start to wrap it up, mate, very soon. But I just want to ask you this other question. What's a question you believe every leader should ask themselves to drive their own personal and professional growth?
[01:04:21] Speaker B: Probably understanding your story and your journey first, getting a real understanding of who you are and then when you're trying to get an understanding of your team, it's probably having a think and consideration about, okay, what am I not considering in a specific scenario and how can I sort of stand back and change that perspective to sort of alter or assist my current understanding of the situation?
Does that make sense?
[01:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. I mean, again, how I take that is sort of look at the current reality and then sort of look at future and possibilities. Again. I always look back to continue to be curious and less judgmental. I think there's that curiosity undertone, is.
[01:05:17] Speaker B: What you're saying, titled curiosity and then the courage to act, you know, ask those questions.
I get blown away by sometimes. When I first went into the organisation, you know, I went in as a 41 year old graduate because I just found it so hard to get into a meaningful role with someone with disability.
And it just blew me away. Outside my hiring manager and so forth, no one really came up and asked any really curious questions for me. I'd go, well, what's the background of that guy?
You know, I'd been in the organization for five and a half years and then someone must have pockets of people knew my background and how I got into mining. But someone must have done a bit of background search. And then I popped up on someone's Contact Me from the Coalface magazine. You know, it wasn't until that magazine, when I was on the front cover of this magazine that everyone, wow, we didn't know, we didn't know your story and, and it just blew me away that for me as a leader I want to sort of understand someone, you know, background interest, where do you want to go? How are we going to get you there?
You know, am I now a leader that's going to be courageous enough to try and get you there?
[01:06:41] Speaker A: You know, I think it comes back to nowadays, again, we've got things rammed down our throat that you don't see people as people, you see them as a label. You know, you see a guy in a wheelchair or you see an Asian walking up the street, or you see a person of color or a black person, whatever you're supposed to say now. It's like we're not just looking at people as people who have unique backgrounds, unique experiences. It's fair to say that yours is even unique than most people, the challenges you face. But if you've got a deep interest in just people and learning their story, then that's the sort of stuff that comes out, isn't it? And again, I find that one of the most challenging or fundamental, basic things that requires some deliberate time investment is that people aren't taking the time, particularly in leadership roles, but just generally to get to learn other people's stories. And again, it comes back to that relational, that trust building, that vulnerability, all of that sort of stuff.
[01:07:39] Speaker B: Totally. We get caught up in roles and titles and I could feel myself being. That's his role and this is the way that we get him forward, even though he's come from a very different background or pathway.
[01:07:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I love your adaptability, resilience and clarity. I mean, again, those sort of three areas is absolutely fantastic.
[01:08:04] Speaker B: I might get a shirt made up. Do you want to be the first purchase?
[01:08:07] Speaker A: You don't have a shirt already? I'm disappointed.
[01:08:11] Speaker B: No.
[01:08:13] Speaker A: Put it this way. I do. At the end of the show, once we finish recording and a bit after I reflect on the show, I look at the transcript and I start to pick out some. My top three key takeaways. Look, it's always a challenge. I get to speak with fantastic people like yourself, but I definitely think somewhere along the lines that adaptive resilience and clarity will come into it. So if they're not on a T shirt, mate, they'll be somewhere in my three key takeaways.
[01:08:37] Speaker B: Right.
[01:08:38] Speaker A: Maybe our thumbnail on YouTube will be your T shirt. You can, we can design it for you or something.
[01:08:43] Speaker B: But yeah, I know. It's like you look right at people doing stuff, especially some of the mindset coaches for some of these athletes, and they've always got three, three things that they're comfortable with and they bring them back. I was listening to a. A mindset coach the other day. Someone said, hey, why don't you listen to this guy?
And I found it really interesting. He was really comfortable talking in his space, but when there was a question outside that space, he tried to answer it. And I'm like, hey, I know a little bit about that. And no, that's, that's not it. But he did a real, A really great job job of bringing it back to his three key drivers.
[01:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's where you can also.
There's a lot of people in the world today. And again, I don't want to be too critical because everyone's making their way, but you can just by being interested in asking some deeper questions, you can really start to identify if people actually know their stuff or they just know the limit of their stuff. And there's not a lot of context outside of that. It's almost like book smart versus or I've got some stuff, I've developed a model or whatever. But this is the reality and how it works in real life.
[01:09:54] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. And you know, as a society, especially as leaders, we don't want to show that vulnerability that, you know, maybe we don't have all the answers and we may have to look to someone else to fill that gap. You know, the sooner we can do that and have more voices at the table, you know, the right voices as well, the better we'll probably be as a society.
[01:10:14] Speaker A: Yeah, spot on, mate. I'm really excited to see where your journey goes, but I'm also impatient, so I'd love you to give me a bit of a flavor. If we're sitting here in, you know, let's say three to five years time in this crystal ball stuff, what do you hope to have achieved in that time? What does it look like in three to five years time?
[01:10:34] Speaker B: Yeah, for me, really it's having that, that impact and driving the change that's needed to get people from diverse backgrounds represented at the right places. I think that's a key focus for me over the next year or two is building up those networks and relationships between the organizations and probably the employer groups and sporting organizations and just go, okay, where do we need to go? How are we going to get diverse groups not just into a role, but into a meaningful role and then through to a leadership group?
You know, we're all aware of all of the literature that's out there in terms of, you know, what diversity brings to a team. We just don't know how to manage that and how to use it or utilise it successfully.
[01:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah, spot on, mate. I look forward to, again, as I said, hearing and watching that journey. And look, if there's anything we can do from the cultural leadership perspective or from me personally, then we now have a, you know, we now have a relationship. You're part of the culture of leadership guest club, let's say. So, yeah, look forward to seeing that. And absolutely, you can reach out at any time, mate. So look forward to helping out where I can. But what's the. In our. We always Ask this question of our guests to finish off. What's one thing that's helped you build a culture of leadership?
[01:12:03] Speaker B: One thing I think we've talked a lot about relationships and I think that's it.
It's creating those authentic relationships where actually you're invested in the individual.
[01:12:23] Speaker A: Love it, mate. What I love more is you weren't trying to find something new. You talked about it several times. It's so important. So I'm here, here. Ditto, mate. Spot on, mate. I really enjoyed this conversation. You are definitely an inspiring individual. And like I said, I generally mean it that it'll be fantastic just to see the journey and the impact that you have, you know, continuing within your own family and the broader business and what you do with your business as well. So really excited for you in the future and well done on everything you're doing, mate. Fantastic to have people like you that are picking up the mantle in sort of chosen passion and just making a difference. And like you said during the interview, just having a cr, which is so important.
[01:13:04] Speaker B: Thanks. Thanks for having me. It's been really enjoyable. And yeah, it's been a long time coming. But yeah, thank you.
[01:13:10] Speaker A: Thanks for the last dig. It's been absolutely my pleasure, buddy.
[01:13:13] Speaker B: Perfect.
[01:13:14] Speaker A: These are my three key takeaways from my conversation with Cameron. My first key takeaway, Confident leaders build trust through relationships. Authentic connections are the cornerstone of effective leadership, whether in sports or business. Taking the time to understand and value your team builds the trust needed to drive performance.
My second key takeaway, Confident leaders embrace discomfort for growth. Growth often stems from facing challenges head on. By addressing discomfort and creating spaces for open dialogue, leaders foster adaptability and resilience within their teams.
And my third key takeaway, Confident leaders lead by example. Setting high standards and modeling desired behaviors inspires teams to excel. Great leaders adapt their approach to individual needs while maintaining a unified purpose to achieve collective goals.
So, in summary, my three key takeaways were Confident leaders build trust through relationships, Confident leaders embrace discomfort for growth, and Confident leaders lead by example. Let me know your key takeaways on YouTube or at theculturalleadership.com thanks for joining me. And remember, the best outcome is on the other side of a genuine conversation.
